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Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:44 am

Works either way,
192k @ 8ms
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby nix » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:50 am

Hey fellas,
I got the diodes today,
and did some experiments on the circuit.
It seems the diodes don't do anything for me,
although I'm liking the device applied.

So at this stage the problem I have is,
the generator motor becomes part of the circuit when connected.

I have two power sources, the battery and the gen-
and somehow I need to sum them.
Any ideas?

Yes it does work either way- but I feel true understanding is important.
There is a lot for me to learn, less for many electricians who have studied.
There is also a query on the AC/DC status of the generator dyno.
I'm confused because of what multimeter is telling me,
which is that it is DC.

B'72- I am a little fascinated by this stuff, so I will enjoy it.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby Jay » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:14 pm

if you are seeing both ac and dc on your meter then this is due to a partial dc conversion at the commutator with some ac leaking through,(its spinning to fast??) DC motors do not actually generate DC they produce wild AC as do all other gensets, it then requires rectification into DC, on some gensets this is done at the commutator by means of timing so that the current gets chopped in a way that eliminates the negative half of the sine wave thus dc (all be it messy dc that needs smoothing), or it can be done through reversal of certain coil windings, or you can just take the wild ac and rectify it with a bridge! it just depends on the type of motor/gen or altenator

Where do you get the idea that a rectifier made from 4 diodes is sub-par :? it is the industry standard way of doing it.

if your diodes do nothing then they are the wrong rating or type nix! I trust you have them the right way round! (the amount of times ive soldered in a diode the wrong way round! jesus!) ;) What kind of diodes are they? You only want one on the positive output of the genset, your positive pole will depend on the direction of rotation, a schottky or some other fast recovery diode! What kind of dc motor are you using for the genset? Part no?

what you should see is that the drive motor runs a tiny bit longer when you cut the external power input with the gen feeding into it!

regardless this is not regenerative anyway! Harvesting the BEMF from the drive motor would be regenerative ;)

remember any generator is considered a loss, in that you have to put more mechanical energy into it than what you get back in electrical energy, so if you have a machine doing work and you think to yourself ok let’s add a generator to recover some of the input you strap on the genset and tap of its electrical energy and think yes I’ve done it! I’m recovering energy! but, you are not because adding the generator has doubled or more the required torque required from the drive motor to sustain the whole system thus drawing more electrical current to do it! So then when you do all the maths you find that you are in actual fact just adding more losses to the overal system!

But one thing i know is, what you are trying to do has been claimed to have been done (apparently) successfully by others, but it requires flywheel arrangements,specially converted or made gensets and some form of charge circuit between the gen and the input/battery! from what I’ve seen most use either pulse charging or cap dumping or charge regulators in some exotic circuits! here is the us patent application for the qmogen it might answer some questions for you as it explanes how the inventor managed to overcome the above spoken of losses
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... /7,095,126

i would still encourage you to keep playing with it to find out these things for yourself though! everything is worth doing even if it does not work! its the best way to learn inho! i used to be into this motors stuff but i have moved onto working with fusors, high voltage,inductive systems, hho catylization and supposed lenr effects! i tried fusing hydrogen and deutarium into helium in a homemade Farnsworth fusor but got told to stop what i was doing by some more learned fellows, because i was working at voltages and pressures that were likely emmiting small gamma bursts and i did not have the correct protections in place :lol:
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:00 pm

Jay wrote:i tried fusing hydrogen and deutarium into helium


Can you even express that into a reaction equation, or is it just emitting all of its waste? 8-)


Also Nix.. There are these rectifyer IC's do the same thing "are" the same thing.
But maybe a bit simpler to have, also come in high speed diode version.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby nix » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:20 pm

circuit_0.png
circuit_0.png (522.05 KiB) Viewed 16637 times


This is part of the circuit I have. This photo demonstrates that DC motors generate DC.
It reads bottom to top.
So the tiny motor at the top wants to spin, and does.
It doesn't spin wildly back and forth, and trip out like it would with an AC signal.
It spins quite nicely in one direction, and I suggest it is receiving DC.
All (edit) 3 motors are DC.
This goes against conventional knowledge and I am confused.

I have built the diode bridge and I like it.
It means my generator motor isn't receiving power from the battery,
only the mechanical couple from the drive motor.

It still doesn't work, the voltages/current don't sum.

Cheers!

You can see my parts in the photo, Jay.
The coupled motors are essentially the same unit.
I think they would run for an extended time at 15volts,
maybe not at 18, but would handle a short wattage spike.
They are out of a printer probably.
The diodes I have are 40 watt Shottke ones,
they have and impedance of .5 v, and leak .5 v
Last edited by nix on Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby briant1972 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:33 am

Those are permanent magnet DC motors. The armature (the part that spins) generates a magnetic field that interacts with the permanent magnets and causes it to spin. The relationship of the brushes to the magnets sets the 'timing'. People that have raced remote control cars know all about this. On racing motors, you can actually adjust the timing to get peak RPMs out of the motors. Just like with gas engines, there is a point where you have advanced the timing too far and the RPMs go down while current goes way up. Also, if you look at the current to the motor, it is at it's peak when the motor isn't turning since a DC motor, which is basically an inductor has the impedance of the wire which is very low until the motor starts turning.

All motors definitely are not DC. Most motors that I run into for industrial purposes are AC and are brushless. With the brushless types, there is basically a rotating field around the armature which induces a field in the armature and eventually gets it moving, then you can control speed with the frequency of the field.

Also, there is typically some sort of circuitry to control the excess voltage that is generated by the motors when they coast to a stop, that's how some of the braking works on electric cars but instead of being dumped to a big braking resistor, it's dumped back into the batteries. If you short out the output of your generator motor I'd expect the main DC motor to either slow down or start drawing more current.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby nix » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:07 am

Sorry mate,
you misunderstand me,
all 3 of these motors are dc,
not all electric motors are DC.

Yeah mate, I am seeing this loading in these little motors,
it's bringing them to a stop in a half-dead 9 volt battery.
I'm seeing the spin slow to a stop, not that I have set the polarity wrong.
I'm still struggling to understand all this.

No-offence meant on my part,
Jay, you,Maik and MHz have the applied knowledge-
I can't understand why my generation seems to be DC--
will read your post again.

edit- I also have experienced the repulsion of the spin in a big gen-set,
when you engage the circuit, the diesel motor spins down.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:42 am

In a way the motor is going to act like a resistor, its going to put out what it didn't burn up on the other side.
The rectifier could be there to remove small amounts of flutter, but not alternating currents perse. Think most of it would result in drag, but thats down to the quality of the motor. Since the inverse is true spinning it and suffering drag if the timing might be off. Thats why they close the loops and no current flows.

What you see either way is probably going to be DC, only a bit more or less with or without the rectifier.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby Jay » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:34 pm

Hey

@ Mhz! soz m8 im to dumb to put that reaction into an equation form ha ha im really not a mathematically minded or scientifically trained person, but here is what happens, maybe you could convert what i write into an equation :) The reaction is joining four hydrogen atoms into one helium atom. Two hydrogen atoms (one proton and one electron) join into a heavy hydrogen atom (one proton and neutron with one electron). The extra electron joins with its proton to produce the neutron. This makes the heavy hydrogen atom called deuterium. Two deuterium atoms then fuse into one helium atom. The four hydrogen atoms we started with have greater mass than the one helium atom we end with. The lost mass is released as radioactive energy. All be it only a small amount of mass is lost, multiplying the small mass by the speed of light squared, results in a large amount of energy. Here are some links on the fusor device http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnsworth ... rsch_fusor

@Nix Nice little setup m8, i to did this with small PM dc printer motors at 12v running them from a bench supply or even an old pc power supply!

your question about the dc output of your motor, it is indeed dc! it works like this, an ac current is produced by the rotation of the armature (Coils) through the opposing magnetic fields of the permanent magnets, thus an ac current is induced, a sine wave, this ac is then passed to the commutator that is made up of copper strips soldered to the ends of each of the windings, these strips are isolated from each other, the commutator spins with the brushes making contact with the commutator segments which switches the current on-off-on-off-on-off, continuously, each on-off is performed over one half cycle of the sine wave (one half rotation of the coil) or twice per cycle, here is a drawing (forgive my crude photoshoping ;)
ac-dc.png
ac-dc.png (9.66 KiB) Viewed 16586 times
so the latter half of each full sine (Negative) is chopped of leaving a half wave, On a purposly constructed DC generator, many coils switching in this manner around a commutator with many sections, pushes a great many half wave pulses out into a steady usable direct current stream! man im rubbish at explaining things!

an ac generator is constructed virtually the same apart from the means of current collection, its commutator is in the form of solid slip rings that output the full ac waves

ok well what i discovered was the signals don’t sum by the methods you are attempting, (similar to my first efforts) as they are rather different, i.e the frequency of the dc out signal is different to the dc out of the battery or supply! this is due to the interaction of the split ring commutator segments and brushes plus the rotational speed of the armature making up its output freq, also if you are able to look at these two signals (dc batt - dc gen) on a scope they look very different, so what i was told was the two dc signals need to be made the same to be summed as one signal of greater current, this can be done by means of a regulator circuit like a simple buck boost convertor on the output of the gen and input switching circuits ie, switching between stored gen output (capacitive) and battery/supply input!

Your setup! I’m pretty sure your printer motors are 12v dc, and a little bit much for a 9v battery, try getting a hold of an old pc power supply or some decent 12v batteries to do this bud, they are most likely rated at 9 -14.5 volts, 0.5 amp motors, so you want a good current supply to the motor to produce the required torque to turn the generator, what you are getting with the system bogging down is the load being applied to the generator which results in back torque, eddy currents and B fields in the generator that manifest as drag, requiring more torque from the motor to turn the generator and pump out the current! you can test this out by simply attaching say an led or resistor of some sort to the output of your generator whilst it is running open voltage/un-shorted (without gen to motor feedback loop) you will hear the run motor change speed and slow down as this load is applied, when this is happening your drive motor is pulling more current from its source to maintain its own rotation and in turn rotate the generator with a load

so, in the closed loop scenario the output current from the generator is looped back to the drive motor but it is less than the additional current required to run the system with the extra load imposed by the generator, don’t forget that a regenerative system of this nature is put in place to recapture waste energy from a system that is already doing work of some form and already has a load on the motor, a regenerative system would recapture its energy from conversion of waste kinetic energy or capture of energy from the environment whereas this setup costs more than it converts/generates! Since the motors are not 100% efficient there are losses right from the start, the generator is very inefficient and adds greater losses in the form of drag and consumption so you see the catch 22 that many great inventors have tried to overcome!

This drag force from the generators is exactly how regenerative braking works in a car, when you apply the brake it engages 4 generators through gearing, these are connected to the load (batteries) and the resulting back torque slows the car down.


some AC induction motors actually speed up under load which is quite strange! microwave fan motors do this!

so can this be done make an efficient motor gen? Yup but not by doing it with matched dc motor/generators! unless you do this ;)
Fig112.gif
Fig112.gif (11.68 KiB) Viewed 16586 times

There are quite a few regenerative motor/gen inventions out there now,

bedini motors (bemf capture from collapsing magnetic field, environmental energy conversion)
cole motors (bemf capture from collapsing magnetic field, environmental energy conversion)
qmogen (amplification, regulation, dc-ac -ac-dc convention, step-up)
Gravity motor/gens
air/gas compressor generators
Tesla turbine
grey motor

And a few solid state contraptions that have no moving parts but create the same effects of a motor and generator using fancy pulse generators and switching and iron core coils etc and are said to output either unity or slightly above unity (more out than in) btw science says you cant have overunity but it has been demonstrated many many times in various types of system

this topic kinda makes me want to get some old toys out again to have a play around again! :D
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:35 pm

Thats as close as it gets mostly, more of a descriptor for molecules that dont tend to ionize.
If it gets radioactive I cant make sense of it either :lol:

Edit: My description was a bit hard to get through..
Personally free energy wise I like the tesla coil a lot, but that may be illegal from a certain point.
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