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Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Discuss Control Systems here

Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby nix » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:50 pm

You're quite right that 2 signals at different phases may not sum.
You can null them if they are inverse.
I'm not sure that's what's happening-
I need to buy a scope.

I infer that this is happening in my circuit-
electricity is behaving like liquid under hydraulic pressure,
with the diode bridge as a one-way valve.
(the diode bridge is necessary as it stops the battery powering the generator motor)
the diode bridge cannot be forced open by the lesser current generated by
the generator motor, in opposition to the higher power steady DC supplied by the battery.
Does that make electronic sense? It won't flow through the bridge-
that's what I think atm- I'm prolly wrong.

How can you transduce the field-from your last post?
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby Jay » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:44 am

well you dont need a full bridge on an already dc output, a bridge is used to take an ac signal and convert it over to a dc signal! see image!
rectifier.jpg
rectifier.jpg (7.65 KiB) Viewed 17396 times


you would want a full bridge rectifier on an ac generator and it is the most common way of converting ac to dc in our everyday electronics!

by using a full bridge to re- rectify the dc output of your motor/gen you are causing losses in the form of voltage drop of all the diodes! it is however behaving as you think as a valve but you only need one diode

to set up a blocking diode you place one on the positive output of the generator to stop backflow of current from the load/battery! you also want a capacitor across the output to smooth the ripple from the dc, i would use a 25v eletrolitic.
voltage-of-a-smoothing-capacitor.png
voltage-of-a-smoothing-capacitor.png (26.4 KiB) Viewed 17396 times


ive whacked together a small and crude setup of 2 direct coupled printer motors (brushed dc) running on 12v from a tricked out pc switchmode supply im getting 16v open voltage across the gen output, had it quite happily charging a 12v 7ah gel acid battery and running a strip of 12v rgb leds with a dc controller! the gen voltage drops to about 10v under load, will make a vid later tonight!

im setup like this
setup.jpg
setup.jpg (22.25 KiB) Viewed 17396 times

the cap ive used was a 16v electrilitic just because its what i had at hand, diode is a 1N5819 again it was at hand
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby nix » Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:11 pm

This is what I propose->
setup_feedback.png
setup_feedback.png (29.98 KiB) Viewed 17386 times


Do you have a scope Jay?

edit- That's really cool u r doing this too!
So another way to look at what I mean with the feedback,
apart from summing- which is what I've been calling it-
is running two power supplies in parallel, one of which is some 1 volt lower at 9 volt scale.
I did something which may have been unwise, sorry people,
but thankfully my aa batteries didn't malfunction.
I plugged a 3v power supply in parallel, with blocking diode.
It had the same effect as my generator motor-
it couldn't force the diode open.

So how do you sum or run these 2 supplies in parallel?

I think I got the wires the wrong way around in the feedback drawing,
oh well it's fine to do that for a short time at low wattage hehe.

That's strange you are getting a higher voltage Jay-
1. What is the comparative wattages? Since u r not running batteries u can check.
2. What happens if you trade the position of the 2 dynos? Use the drive for generation and vice versa?

That's interesting the cap information- I am not brave enough to use one. Will read ur post again mate!
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby nix » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:13 pm

What do you think about bringing the motors closer together to increase the EM field?
If the wattage across the free spun generator is more than the power supply something weird is happening.
To absolutely minimize the distance between motors-
cut the shafts and unhook it from the power and put a 2 spots of weld on it-
this may amplify the EM field.

edit- Also I wanted to mention that we are not necessarily creating a pulsing dc stream,
like such that is created by a rectifier.
Someone with a scope needs to look what it looks like coming out of our dynos.
Today I coupled 3 motors together, however the torque demanded is immense comparative to what I have in the photo. The idea was to mechanically transduce the generation, and sum it kinetically, as I can't get it to wire up. It's not going to do much IMO. I can safely try it though. I have a 12 volt 20 amp supply.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:37 pm

I would say it's not going to work, altho a bit reluctant to be the one to say because its going so well. ;)
Basicly the more systems involved the more energy will leak away into running the systems.
You may see a voltage increase, This is because various components scrape just a tad of energy back from the system, and putting it to use increasing the voltage. This does not increase the wattage. Only the wattage of the system itself, but thats a bad thing. By observing that energy your system has actually become less efficient. And your battery will drain faster I reckon.
192k @ 8ms
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby nix » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:57 pm

Well, we seem to have turned up DC generation from dynos-
whatever that means in all practicality
- so that's good.

Jay has only shared the volts, so I dunno if there is anything in the em field idea.

Using 3 directly coupled motors just seems wrong to me,
I'm tossing up wether to plug it in with a switch to load the generator and impel a smaller driver.
It's not going to do anything, but hey- I made a model and kept busy.

Mhz man, do you think if there was some theoretical way of summing the generation voltage and
input supply, would the device respond by speeding up and continuing to do so?
I mean- i'm guessing it would just load and bog down the generator or not?
Is this a waste of time- or can you see what I'm thinking working?
You don't have to coddle me, I know this kinda thing is physically impossible.
I want to sum electronically- with DC constants, so nothing is lost to inefficiencies wherever possible.
I am willing to take the 1 voltage hit for diodes and the like- as long as it feeds more current
to the generator driver pins than the supply by itself.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:31 pm

Think its fun to squeeze some extra volt out of it. But it is best to be pulled out of what you got into the where youd need it for. And im just rambling away totally confused as to where it would be used for.

The common way to interface motors to computers is to use PWM motors, they are generally more efficient.
And can be driven via USB, paralel, and also MIDI<--.
If you want to get more current you can grab it from your PSU inside your computer, use the 12v line for instance, plenty of current there.

Found this on it, so basicly create a short on your computer ;)

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1720651

Bottom of the page..
Last edited by MegaHurtz on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:50 pm

Oh just create a short circuit inside your computer, :twisted:
And that was the last time his family had seen him alive.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby MegaHurtz » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:05 pm

nix wrote:Mhz man, do you think if there was some theoretical way of summing the generation voltage and
input supply, would the device respond by speeding up and continuing to do so?


No. But maybe frictionless, far removed from any mass/energy source and cooled to absolute 0 it may keep running at the same pace on a loop.(or faster for that matter) But then again energy does not like to be trapped, so who knows what might happen.
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Re: Let's automate everything hehe(interfacing PLCs+)

Postby Jay » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:05 am

oh man! i have a post missing from last night! it was a long one too! bugger!

anyway i will go over a bit of what i said, but first thing is! do not be fooled by your cheap digital meters when working with pulsed variable freq dc, they are not suited for this kind of thing and give all manner of false readouts that lead people to think they are getting more out than in! it is quite essential to get a couple of good quality analouge meters for volts and amps! Ive even seen the likes of Dr John bedini and Dr Peter linderman comment on the fact that even the high end flukes and the likes are not suitable for working in this field of research! :shock:

ok nix you asked about summing the output! you are summing it in a parallel connection so you wont see adding of voltages! that requires serial connection! So then in a parallel connection of two electrical sources you are summing the current -amperages! it is there and if you have everything set up correctly it should be passing to the motor and be pulled down! and the system bogs, something to do with adding two currents, the whole system gets pulled down to the lowest value of the two! the way you check this is quite technical and not just a case of chucking a meter at it, i cant remember it all but i will will se if i can find a vid on it

yes you are right about the dc output being different to the output of your power supplies, it is not a stable current, its all bumpy and variant in frequency! in a scope they dont look alike! next thing is it is full of back spikes of a high voltage coming from the collapse of the induced magnetic fields in the coils of the generator! BEMF! you can capture that BEMF by filtering it off! there is a way to show its existance by placing a neon lightbulb in the mix (they switch on at about 90volts) so the dc of the gen is all pulsey and ripply and thin, that is why it then needs further conditioning with circuitry! these little motors are fine for showing the principles of dc generation but they need modified to output a proper dc current and they are too little for that, if i set out to build a PMG i put togeather a system of many bifiliar coils and double that amount in magnets to give the smooth constant current, outputed as Ac and rectified to dc with a bridge, i set the magnets all north facing and the coils are usually star config!

the cap in my setup is there to smooth out a bit of the ripple and act as a little bit of a buffer, thats what i am showing in the previously posted diagrams! ripply bumpy current is fine for charging batteries, they dont care, batteries are selfish little shits and they only care about staying charged! by any means! :lol: , the thought is that the electrochemical reaction in the batteries makes the bumpy currents stable or something like that! :)

you are not wasting your time at all here m8 as you are learning, what you are trying to do though does not work in this arrangement though or with these little motors! but it is fun and where you should start out learning, and yeah i do have a scope somewhere! an old one! will have to dig it out!

Megahurtz you are quite correct in your thoughts on the losses that have to be overcome for a system like this to work!

your question about sharing the magnetic field, well the way people are doing it is not by sharing the magnetic flux from two seperate devices like the dc motor driving the gen, they have did it by building motors that are a generator at the same time! highly efficient perminent magnet pulsed dc motors with efficient generator coils and charging/inverter systems built in, others do the conversion back and forth thing to get the generated power up to being the same as the input for looping back!

here is my setup vid ha ha http://youtu.be/dw8E2kR8BLA
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