DSP Robotics Support

@tulamide

Please, don't get me wrong. I pray for your success. But it's my experience with marketing FS made plugins talking from my throat. I don't wan't you to put your efforts and poor resources where the probability is against you.
64bit\cross platform support hurdle is too high in the nowadays. I wish all DAWS has a built-in bridge, but they have no.

I have some crazy ideas for seeding the "cream" of FS into a cheap micro PC based hardware and make products that may attract people to buy it for sure, but they all need some minimum budget, so I don't see a point in sharing them since I know that people here won't co-operate. But think about it, guys: That's where FS can badly shine against any competitor. Think "remote control". Think "touchscreens+friendly & easy to use interfaces". Think "minimizing". This direction is much practical in term of making some revenues IMO.

Martin's idea to make it free is good, but it would take lot of time and efforts to translate it to incomes. We need some "WOW" which the current FS tools can definitely do. Please, think about it. I even suggest to open a special post that would be called "crazy things that "flowstone" can theoretically do". Those "crazy" ideas would eventually become the key for the financial success. And I'm sure that malc would feedback us in this case.

I personally think that the commercial plugins development with FS belongs to the near past. I prefer looking forward to the future.

just my 1/2 cent ...

to add even more to the overall effort ...

Plan 2 releases.

A free release that gets it in the public eye, during which a 'commercial' version could be developed [with possible insights/ suggestions] from those interested.

1. the 'free' would not need protection.
2. It would help assess whether a paid, commercial release is warranted.

My 'commercial' activities is minimal. Regardless of DAW use, most everyone wrote to me complaining for 64-bit support .... that, and MAC platform.

I did sell a few copies. I does not cover the cost of running the website.

In retrospect, it may had been smarter to just post info on a few of the 'interest' sites, and setup a public dropbox for the demo. I already have the PayPal for those annoyed to clear the demo restriction.

People are really fussy. Even Reaper users complained. With its built in bridge, they hated the floating window.
Now that I'm on 64-bit ... I'm using my FS project in most every mastering session I work. Granted, I did discover some issues when I wrote/tested all on XP-32. Those issues were mainly with the FILESYSTEM of the OS. I fixed them ... but now I cannot test back on 32-bit, so not absolutely sure.

As we all have said. If FS could export 64-bit, a fundamental hurdle would be removed.

kortezzzz wrote:Please, don't get me wrong. I pray for your success.

Don't worry! I do understand that.

kortezzzz wrote:I personally think that the commercial plugins development with FS belongs to the near past. I prefer looking forward to the future.

May or may not be. But that's not the point of this project.

martinvicanek wrote:Thanks everybody for their valuable inputs. Ihave been thinking that we should target for a free product. Here is why:

• 1. I doubt we could earn any amount to significantly influence 64bit progress - a development effort likely measured in man years.
• 2. I would agree with PHI that it is much more work to set up a Web shop with licensing, payment handling, copy protection (which will be cracked anyway) etc., compared to offering the product for free.
• 3. With a free offer, we would reach far more people and could create a greater impact.
• 4. If we succeed in shifting the current perception of FS as a "nice toy", we could perhaps attract more customers to DR and contribute more efficiently wrt development funding.

I have no experience in selling a top-notch product (which this one is). So I can't say if (1) and (2) are true or not. I have to rely on people's experiences with selling such high quality products as a convolution engine.
(3) is an argument I can follow.
(4) is my main motivation for doing this!

In general: I'm quite disappointed that this thread, meant as a call for help, is once again misused for a discussion about 64-bit. I'm simply tired of those endless debates. Please take notice that this project is not about what Flowstone is not able to do. It is about what Flowstone can do. We want to attract possible plugin developers, not consumers. Showing the abilties is therefore the most important thing. If you do a search on KVR, you can restrict the search to a development environment. If you choose "made with synthmaker" there, you will be so disappointed. I am at least. The good stuff is buried deep under effortless quick hacks. Yes, effortless. Just two examples:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/aliquoter-by-milomil
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/dsk-thor-by-dsk-music

Not even changed the look of the stock modules. Just clicked them together. Should this really be the picture we're painting of Flowstone, while it is so much more powerful, so much more versatile?

As a developer, if I came to this site now, I wouldn't consider working based on Flowstone. Because all I would read is what it can't do. Nowhere is to be read what it can do!

You might not have recognized it, but since audio and robotics were melted into one software product, Malc more and more concentrated on the robotics part. Why? Obviously he sees much more potential there. In fact, he could have dropped audio support completely. He didn't. On the contrary, he even reacted to suggestions to bring another developer on board that could concentrate on the audio side. Was this acknowledged? Not at all! Still the same weeping. My motivation is to set a sign against this negativism! I want to support Flowstone! I want to show the world, there's more to Flowstone than the examples above!

Please refrain from posting here, if I got on your nerves or if there's "64 bit" in your mind. Just post here, if you want to offer your help.

martinvicanek wrote:That being said, we would still need some voluteers to do the marketing fuzz.

I think my comments are being mis-understood. I use FlowStone to make things that I could never do. I will not be investing the years to learn C++ ... I'm just accepting the reality of what I focus my time into. FlowStone has brought opportunity for me to even contemplate an idea, and [to whatever degree] realize some level of it.

I don't think I'm alone in this view, at least with the many members of this forum that have expressed similar.

This thread asked for our experience with the rest of the world. I shared the little exposure I faced.

It does NOT change the fact that I like FlowStone. The stuff I want to make ... I want and have a need for. I'm disappointed in a sense how the 'market' responded, but I still want these specialized tools ... I'll work to make them for me.

We've had the 32/64 outpour of feelings on this. I too have resigned to what we have. Fine ... it is what it is as far as anything I could do about it.

I'll add ... I'm now better aware that it also doesn't matter that I like and use FlowStone. The potential 'market users' don't care what I like. Add in some nasty, demanding, 'entitled-users' comments, I'm not as enthusiastic to address or deal with.

I've had the pleasure of meeting knowledgeable, respectable people on this forum. I am very happy about that. The hope that I could extend out my passion into other areas [like specialized software] has been tempered.

However ... I am cursed as an eternal optimist. I've also been accused of being stubborn on an idea or dream. I don't like hearing 'it can't be done'. I can't pull all the all-nighters like I did before, the 3-4 hours sleep is sometimes not enough ... I might should have listen to many of the 'negative' people that surround ... that's a tough pill to swallow. The challenge will be to work through the wall of resistance ... just need to remain mindful.

Here's my vision which is subject to change without prior notification

The Flowcom site would only feature high quality products made with Flowstone; firstly the convolver as a showpiece.
The purpose is to promote Flowstone to sell more licenses, to keep it alive and hopefully developing.
Link to FS website and a presence on KVR.
All products free to download.
Paypal donate button, no set amount.

Comments?

Cheers

Spogg

Tulamide, your response was expected, and I should apologize for not being more tactful in that regard. I know that horse has been beaten. At the same time, it's very important to look at things objectively. My intention isn't to be negative. But we can't turn a blind eye to such important factors either. There's no reason in restricting our thinking just because problems persist that we don't want to be held back by anymore. We'll do better by continuing to be realistic about them.

That being said, this is not a defeatist post. I still have some ideas and I'm happy to share them.

Martin has suggested going with a free release. That's one option and I think it is a realistic one. It's hard to say how much of an impact it may have on things though.

The original goal of bringing in income to fund development may still be possible, but I believe it only will be if DSP themselves are involved in some capacity.

Consider and compare the following two statements:

We're going to use the funds from these sales to try to get 64 bit and cross platform support in Flowstone.

VS

If we sell 100 licenses, Flowstone will support 64 bit and cross-platform plugin development. All license owners will then receive 64-bit compatible versions of the plugin when it's ready.

The former suggests an intention, which is nice but not very convincing. The latter makes a promise, and that's something to get excited about.

As of now I can only wonder if Malc and friends even know about this whole idea, let alone support it. If we can get them to back the plan in some concrete way, then we can make concrete promises, which people are far more likely to care about at all. This is something like a crowdfunding effort, so we need to make it clear to people exactly what their interest and investment is going to make happen.

So let's propose some concrete promises:

• 64 bit support
• Cross-platform support
• (*insert your audio-related idea here*)

...

Once we have a development plan set forth we can create a budget and then we can see if we can bring in that much money.

There is another issue with this though. People might be interested in the plugin, if it is good, but that doesn't mean they will be interested in the greater cause of supporting Flowstone if they don't even use it and would have to pay $150 for the software to get anything out of it. So how can we reconcile that?

I might suggest as part of this that DSP release a free version of Flowstone that is fully functional except for having exports disabled, similar in a way to the FL Studio version, but available publicly. There are a number of reasons to do this anyways but it could help people feel like they'd be getting access to a really useful piece of software and then they might care more about its future development.

I'm just throwing this out there, and not suggesting it is or isn't a good idea, but this could even be done as an actual Kickstarter campaign. Reward tiers could include something like pledge $40 get the plugin, pledge $100 get a full Flowstone license (discounted of course), etc. And then we could include some other development goals as stretch goals. In general people may take interest in the idea of Flowstone being "rebooted" as a serious dev tool again.

Regardless of how we want to go about it, all this would of course hinge on DSP's willingness to do all these things. Quite frankly this type of stuff could bring in quite an influx of cash in the long run (I might have to ask you to start paying me). But then for all I know Malc is just this hermit living in a cave somewhere who just wants to code his app according to his whim and doesn't care about any of this stuff. I don't know; you tell me.

I think it would be fair, that Malc did a crowfunding campaign to try to implement the 64-bit versions, then gradually expand its campaign based on results, with other options, cross-platform type versions etc.

The realization of a pseudo product to attract people, now no longer works ...
if the DSP Robotics is interested to expand to be herself to do it ...

Malc is okay and availability of this kind of idea?

*sigh*
Now that this thread is de-railed completely , I kindly ask the moderators to close it.

tulamide wrote:*sigh*
Now that this thread is de-railed completely , I kindly ask the moderators to close it.

I'm not sure what else you're looking for. There's no magic way to get a lot more people invested in Flowstone in order to hopefully convince DSPR Flowstone is worth updating for said people. That approach is upside down. Being stubborn about it won't bring you closer to the goals you're trying to achieve.

You can show people what Flowstone is capable of, but that doesn't directly translate into more people investing in Flowstone, and that in turn doesn't directly translate into DSPR focusing on more important audio development. It's those translations that are the issue.

If your goal is just to show people what you've made, then OK, we can do that. But if you're hoping to accomplish anything beyond that then there's more than needs to be looked at.

Perfect Human Interface wrote:Being stubborn about it won't bring you closer to the goals you're trying to achieve.

neither you nor your contributions PHI

i think the question for help was clear, and look what it is now, instead of support there is a lot of useless bla bla how to do it different, why to do it not, why it makes no sense, ..bla bla