New Synth

[rocknrollkat]

Hello anyone,

I am more than a little confused about this discussion that has been going on for a couple of posts.

From what I am being sold as a consumer of vst-instruments by professional companies, I understand that
yes indeed, folks do model electronic circuits in a software environment. One example would be a plug-in
by a small German company called Synapse, "The Legend".

Now again, I just don't know. Obviously this a topic that raises emotions and I have seen plenty of
discussions on the net whether or not this hardware emulation makes sense.

As I wrote, I'm lost. So thank you for taking your time reading this post and maybe there could be some
sort of informed discussion be people into that field, a group of folks I obviously don't belong to.

Have a good day, you all.

Regards
Phil

Hi Phil,
Let's get "unlost".
In electrical engineering the concept of the "black box" is taught.
A signal goes into a black box, and comes out the other end, probably different.
That difference in signals is called the "Transfer Function".
If a signal goes in at -10 dB and comes out at 0 dB with no other changes, the transfer function is +10 dB and the black box is assumed to be a non inverting amplifier of 10 dB gain.
All components and circuits in the real world have specific characteristics, either by design or by default.
Resistors resist. That's their job.
They also add noise. they're not designed to do that, but they do.
So a true black box representation of a resistor would include a voltage drop or current drop (depending on what's being measured) and noise.
A black box representation of a Marshall amp would have an output indistinguishable form a Marshall amp.
What's inside the black box is what you're asking about.
Is there really a Marshall amp inside the black box, or just an accurate emulation ?
Let the software developers worry about the simulation, there's a lifetime of education behind what they do, and they don't get out much.
Here's a link for you...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

I hope this helps you !

ROXY

[tulamide]

Very good explanation tulamide

I think what can add to the difficulty is a confusion between function and method too. Add to that the names we use!

For example, take the names “Low pass filter” and “Oscillator”. These come from the analogue world and we still use them, because we kinda know what to expect when we see them. But in the digital world the method of implementing these functions is entirely different from the analogue approach.

I’ve seen older stuff from Synthmaker days enclosing a stream multiply prim in a module and calling it a “VCA” and this typifies the situation. You could say that many of the more fundamental modules and prims are emulations of analogue functions, but they will of course always be that; emulations.

Cheers

Spogg

You're right! Using the nomenclature in the digital domain definitely increases confusion. You, Roxy, and others know very well what VCA stands for. So seeing that term but at the same time hearing that voltage is completely taken out of any calculations through normalization, can't result in anything but confusion. Although the purpose probably was to say "look, this module's result is similar to a VCA's result", it doesn't become clear.
An "arithmetic oscillator" is indeed another example. Both terms seem to contradict each other. A capacitor loading up through a voltage connection, then immediately releasing all of its load, that's the basics of an analogue oscillator. Arithmetic on the other hand is defined as "a branch of mathematics that consists of the study of numbers, especially the properties of the traditional operations on them—addition, subtraction, multiplication and division." Bringing those to together must lead to confusion. But then again, if you only look at such terms regarding their resulting output rather then their inner components, then you can make sense of it.

As a kid I was the proud owner of this (german blog, but the images speak for themselves), basically a motherboard with a tricky system to create circuits without soldering (you could build a circuit, then remove all elements and build another circuit). I built all kinds of things with it, like a radio and such. Then came the pc and I noticed that pretty much all I learnt from it was rendered useless, since all the transistor circuits I created where now minimzed in a so called IC. I learnt about the difference of risc and cisc CPUs, which nowadays is rendered useless. I learnt the exact components of a CPU, which nobody needs anymore, unless you work for Intel or AMD.

What I want to say by it is that everything changes constantly, and so we have to change as well. Digital instruments were another huge step, and we have to adapt to it. So maybe it isn't all to bad to see familiar terms here and there, to get an understanding of the functionality. (I hope to live until the first neuronet-instruments appear on the market!)

[Spogg]

@Roxy: I think this is what tulamide was trying to explain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBFS

Especially see the part under Analog levels:

dBFS is not defined for analog levels, according to standard AES-6id-2006. No single standard converts between digital and analog levels, mostly due to the differing capabilities of different equipment.

What I really don’t like is the unpleasantness that’s arisen between you and tulamide. What I would suggest is, if you can’t get on together, just ignore each other. Life’s too short!

Cheers

Spogg

[Phil Thalasso]

Hello everyone, hello Roxy, hello Tulamide,

thank you all for your contributions, it helped a great lot to clarify things for me.
My lack of comprehension was as much the result of not reading and not thinking properly,
as one of perfect ignorance of all things electronic - be it digital or analogue.
When Roxy recently posted his capacitator set-up, I thought that was a nice idea to
illustrate something that was new to me. As he implemented everything in code that I
actually could comprehend (the code, not the electronics part), that was fine with
me. Unlike you, Tulamide, I never got into the stuff you obviously did. I had lots of
Fischer-Technik* to tinker with, even some electro-mechanical things, but the Kosmos
Experimentierkasten** I got from my parents in 1977 or 1978 was beyond what I could
comprehend.
So, to sum it all up, just to make sure that I got it straight: Roxy's capacitator
set-up is something that you can do in code. You don't have to call it a "capacitator",
or in Spogg's case a "diode" and it probably isn't good advice for me to try and rebuild
my Moogs in Flowstone by analyzing the hardware electronics. It does, however, make sense
to try and get somewhere near the Moog sound via code. Given, of course, that you know
what you are doing and given that this is something you want to do, just like Synapse did
with their Legend VST. That said, Spogg's "diode" certainly is a much more efficient way
to "halve" a signal, than what I recently did, by calculating the square-root from a poly
stream.
So cheers again to everyone for helping out on this.
Regards
Phil

Footnote:
*Fischer-Technik was / is a plastic toy construction system that was invented
by Artur Fischer.
**Kosmos Experimentierkasten was / is a line of natural-science labs for kids that
come in physics, electro or chemistry flavours.
Unlike Phillips or Kosmos, Fischer-Technik didn't go into electronics per-se but
provided plug-and-play, ready-made modules. thus, unlike Tulamide or Roxy, I have zilch
knowledge of electronics.
Assumingly, however, both Tulamide and I grew up the same western side of the iron-
curtain

[rocknrollkat]

Hi Phil,
Since you have a limited knowledge of electronics, let's look at your Moog emulation project from a black box perspective.
There is a wealth of information on the web about Bob Moog and his synths, look at a block diagram,
and consider the blocks as black boxes with labels on them.
Here's an example of an early Moog synth block diagram.
http://www.oldtech.com/synth/MoogTarusManualB1.gif

Now let's look at a Moog Low Pass filter.
Here's a description of the transfer function, from the Moog site....
https://www.moogmusic.com/products/moog ... ass-filter
Okay, now you know what the filter does.
Since Flowstone is not designed to build circuits from a 'parts bin', like "Electronics Workbench", just concentrate on building your 'Moog Filter' from the website's description .
This is similar, by the way, to a Mu-Tron III from the early 1970s, which coinicidentally, I built this weekend in Flowstone.
I'd start building a Moog lowpass filter by locating an LPF (Low pass filter) module, or a state variable filter and use the lowpass function. Then hook up an oscillator to it with a frequency control pot, and a VU meter on the other end.
Write down what the filter is doing in dBs relative to the pot's value at several different points.
Now you have a filter cutoff plot and you can proceed from there.
Flowstone is custom made for this design approach, you should make quick progress.
Also, keep your synths simple.
The possibilities get overwhelming quickly, and you don't learn as much with a complex piece of gear.
Here's a link to a Mutron III ad from decades ago, just as a point of interest.
http://www.mu-tron.org/images/stevie.gif

And have fun, don't be afraid to ask questions !

ROXY

[Phil Thalasso]

Hello Roxy,

thank you for the Moog links. I guess I did not express myself correctly. I'm not planning to work on a Moog clone. I do own Moog hardware and there are some splendid and free Moog VSTs which are fun to work with. For the time being I just look at other people's work, take it apart, simplify schematics (loss of function accepted) in order to understand how things are working. I don't have any goal where I want to be in half a year, but basically I would be much more interested in things that my hardware cannot do, rather than replicating something I own or could buy in software. Kevin has posted some work with harmonic oscillators in it and I am thinking about setting a Verbos or a Pittsburgh emulation as a horizon target, maybe combined with a sequencer. At the moment, however, I am playing with different oscillators, try to understand modulation, not even reaching for the low hanging fruit, but taking what fell off the tree. If I were to get to the point where I understood most of the primitives flowstone has to offer, I'd be one happy dude. Codewise I try to understand bitmasking. Martin has written a tutorial on it that all makes sense when I see it. I wouldn't be able to come up with it myself, however. I'll be working on changing that. Although I do have plenty of spare time in the evenings, I often am too tired from work to do any learning. So all that will go at a very slow pace. Nonetheless, I enjoy Flowstone and the community around it very much. It turned into my favourite hobby and as such I don't feel the need to speed things up, just want to have fun and enjoy the lot.

Regards
Phil

[rocknrollkat]

Hello Phil,
I see, if you want to learn more about oscillators, I did a few demonstrators a while back.
I've attached my Ring Modulator demonstrator for you to play around with.
They have some very unique possibilities that you may enjoy.

Best regards,

ROXY

[Spogg]

For those not aware of the history of posts to this topic, this won’t make much sense now, so please ignore!

@Roxy: You need to know that tulamide has been a valuable and valued member of this group for over 4 years, during which time he has genuinely helped me, and many others, and his technical and programming knowledge and capabilities are highly respected. If you need a recent example, take a look at the arpeggiator in Adam’s Viper synth.
If he corrects me, and he has, I’ve come to know for sure that I needed correcting and benefitted from it. That goes for several other regulars here too, like Adam.

If I see even a hint of something like your previous reaction to Adam’s post, where you did in fact “draw first blood” you will be banned. If I have to choose between having you or tulamide contributing here I will choose the one who has offered so much useful and accurate stuff so far.

@tulamide: I hope you will consider joining in again soon.

This topic is now locked and I’ll let BobF know. I’ve deleted quite a few posts before locking so I hope it still hangs together.

Spogg